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Debian's "secret" sauce

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By Jake Edge
October 14, 2024

DebConf

While Debian's "sauce" is not actually all that secret, it is not particularly well-known either, Samuel Henrique said at the start of his DebConf24 talk. There is a lot of software-engineering effort that has been put in place by the distribution in order to create and maintain its releases, but "loads of people are not aware" of it. That may be due to the fact that all of that is not really documented anywhere in a central location that he can just point someone to. Recognizing that is what led him to give the talk; hopefully it will be a "first step toward" helping solve the problem.

Henrique said that he is a Brazilian and has been a Debian Developer since 2018. He mostly works in the security tools packaging team, but also maintains some packages outside of that team, including curl and rsync. In addition, he mentors Debian newcomers, mostly on packaging tasks. He works on the Amazon Linux security team. He noted that his web site contains links to the slides from the talk; a WebM video is also available. [Update: A YouTube video with subtitles in English and Portuguese is also available.]

Underpinnings

[Samuel Henrique]

A distribution is a project set up to distribute software; it can choose defaults or tweak how a software package behaves to make it easier to use, for example, as part of that work. But it is important not to ship bugs or other issues, including security problems, in those packages. Some distributions try to stay as close as possible to the upstream code, but "in Debian, we like to improve things" by "applying our own judgment" to the code.

Beyond that, the project needs to support whatever it is that gets shipped. That means there is a need to put procedures in place to "make sure we are following up with reported issues" and fixing them. At all times, the project needs to be supporting the current Debian stable release, while developing the next stable release. "We have to do both things at the same time, and so that is a constant process."

The Debian social contract aligns the project in an "ideological manner"; it provides a definition for "free software", for example. The Debian constitution provides a framework for how the project operates, how it apportions power, how it makes its decisions, and so on. On a technical level, the policy manual describes how packages should (and should not) operate, as well as how they should be put together. And, finally, the developer's reference is meant to give recommendations to packagers on how to follow the policies and to describe tools that can help. Those documents help create a "tight organization where we are all sharing the same goals, following the same rules, roughly speaking", which serves as a basis for the work that the project does.

Forms of Debian

There are multiple releases and repositories that the project works with, Henrique said. For example, a Debian developer who wants to try something out might push it to the Debian experimental repository, which typically only has a few packages. Experimental is not a full release, so it requires being enabled on a system running Debian unstable, then packages from experimental can be installed.

Unstable, also known as "sid", is a full release, so it can be installed on a system. Unstable is a rolling release that is "constantly being updated" and is not officially supported, so "you should not be installing this on your production servers". Debian testing is also a rolling release, but it is "more stable than Debian unstable"

Finally, there is Debian stable, "which is what you should be running on production servers". There is also oldstable, which is the previous stable release that is still being supported. The backports repository provides "newer packages for users of Debian stable"; it is meant to give users flexibility, but it is "not officially supported" as a release.

Architectures

Debian supports 20 architectures, "nine of them are official, 11 of them are not official". Being official means that all of the packages in stable and oldstable are built for them, as are the packages in unstable, testing, and experimental. The non-official architectures only get packages built for stable unstable, testing, and experimental. The list of architectures is "constantly changing"; the Debian release team determines which architectures are official or not before each new stable release. That decision generally comes down to a question of long-term support for an architecture, he said: will there be sufficient infrastructure to build the packages and enough people to help support them?

Henrique put up a screen shot from the buildd.debian.org web site, which showed the build status of the coreutils package on sid for all of the architectures. It shows green for a successful build and red for a failure (only hurd-i386 currently and in his screen shot). The page shows the logs of the build failure; the results of earlier builds and other releases can also be seen at the site.

Supporting multiple architectures matters, he said, because it finds bugs. Currently, Debian supports two architectures for non-Linux kernels, both for GNU Hurd on x86 systems, though it used to also support kFreeBSD. It supports both big- and little-endian systems, as well as 32- and 64-bit architectures; there is also diversity in the size of C data types. All of that is summarized on the Debian wiki. That diversity makes it easier to find problems in upstream software, even when the developer does not have access to, say, a big-endian system to test with. "So if your software is packaged for Debian, you're at least going to know if it runs or not"; maintainers may care about that or might not, but they will at least know.

Henrique pointed to a fix to the tests for GoAWK, which is an AWK implementation in Go, when it is built on 32-bit systems. It had been packaged for Debian and entered the distribution as part of the unstable release when the problem was discovered; the Debian maintainer reported it upstream and developed a fix. Debian was apparently the first to build and test GoAWK on 32-bit systems.

Another example is a bug he reported in the Aircrack-ng WiFi-security tool. It turned out to be a problem building and running the tests on big-endian systems. This kind of thing has happened before, he said, and is fairly easy to spot because all five big-endian architectures suddenly start reporting build/test problems.

Repositories

Henrique created the following diagram to help attendees understand how packages flow into the development repositories: experimental, unstable, and testing. The Debian developer in the upper left has four different places where they can send a new or updated package. They can directly put the package into the experimental or unstable repositories, or they can send updates that are bound for testing to either the release team, for regular updates, or the security team, for security fixes.

[Diagram slide]

He noted that the experimental repository was not further connected in the diagram, "it goes nowhere", which makes sense because of how it is used. The repository makes it "very easy to test things". For example, if he wanted to enable a new architecture for a package and make it available to others for testing, he could upload it to experimental; that will also cause some of the automated testing to happen, which will generate useful reports. "I get a preview of what would have happened if I sent this package to unstable."

It is easy to revert changes in experimental, as the package can simply be removed. In addition, successful changes can be pushed to unstable, which allows having two variants of the same package available at the same time. The curl packagers recently used that ability when the TLS backend was being changed from OpenSSL to GnuTLS; the GnuTLS version stayed on experimental for a month or so, while the OpenSSL version was updated several times on unstable.

The unstable repository does not provide a supported release, but it does have all of the packages available, unlike experimental. It is "installed and used by expert users", however; since it is the first place that new packages show up, a lot of developers make use of it, he said. Packages in unstable get full coverage from the testing and QA infrastructure. It is "important not to break things too badly" because it risks breaking other packages; for risky changes, experimental should be used instead.

Packages in unstable automatically migrate to testing "after some rules are followed"; the package needs to be passing its tests and spend some time in unstable before it gets promoted. While testing is not supported either, it is generally much more stable than unstable since the packages there are bound for the next Debian stable release. There were some recent problems with the 64-bit time_t transition that affected testing, however, which is the kind of thing "that happens every 20 years, maybe"; that shows that testing can still break, but it is "quite stable" overall.

Unlike experimental or unstable, testing has an installer available, so that the installer team can test it before releasing. That means testing can be installed from scratch. He recommends testing for non-server use cases, desktops for example. "I believe it is as stable as any other rolling release" due to all of the checks and procedures that the distribution has put in place.

Stable

When thinking about Debian stable, there are two parts to consider, Henrique said: its creation and its maintenance. The creation happens every two years, by using a snapshot of testing; once it is created, packages are not updated as they are for unstable or testing. Users running stable are looking for something that is predictable, not something that is bug-free; "the point is there won't be ten new bugs showing [up] each day".

But there needs to be a time when packages cannot freely flow from unstable to testing in order to stabilize something that will become stable. The release team has a freeze process that changes the ability of packages to migrate to testing. The requirements for package migration change and get stricter as the various phases of the freeze process progress; in the final phase, any changes need to be manually reviewed and approved by the release team.

The last freeze, for the Debian 12 ("bookworm") release, lasted around six months. During the freeze, there is less activity in the unstable and testing repositories, because the focus is on fixing what is in testing; but updates that are bound for testing are still being pushed to unstable.

Some of the packages pushed to unstable during a freeze may not be bound for stable, however; if there is a need for a fix to the version of that package in testing, a different path must be taken. That is where the testing-proposed-updates and testing-security repositories (from the diagram) come into play; with manual review from the release or security team, patches can go into those repositories and then to testing from there.

Once there has been a stable release, though, the path for package updates also requires manual review by one of the teams depending "on the nature of the fix", Henrique said. Critical security fixes, such as for a CVE, might go directly into stable, but others will "spend baking time in the proposed-updates" repository; the normal requirement is that packages spend a week in proposed-updates before moving to stable. Periodically, the release team will pause migrations from proposed-updates to stable in order to create a point release.

Tools

There are "a million tools in Debian" that can be used for doing various kinds of testing, such as for continuous integration (CI) or general QA. He chose to focus on a few of those in his talk, but all of them are freely available; "anybody can just query all of the build logs of Debian packages, identify a pattern of something that's wrong, and provide patches" to fix the problems found. For those who are curious, the Debian QA group wiki page covers the full set of tools and the processes the group uses.

The dh_auto_test tool is hooked into the package-building system and tries to run the upstream tests once the package is built. It can detect things like testing targets in makefiles and run them automatically, but if it cannot determine how to run the tests, it can be configured to run any tests of interest. It is meant to confirm that the package works in the Debian environment, for all of its architectures, and with the build flags (including hardening options) that the distribution uses. Even though the upstream project is also running its tests, the dependencies that Debian uses may be different; "sometimes we spot issues" because of all of those differences.

Lintian does lots of different tests on packages to find "silly things, like spelling mistakes" or more serious problems like the presence of binary blobs without source files. It is hooked into the build process and if it detects problems that are serious enough, the package will be rejected. His first contribution to the curl package was for a problem detected by lintian: curl was still using Python 2 in its tests after the distribution had switched to Python 3, which was easy to fix.

Autopkgtest standardizes the test definitions for packages so that they can be run as part of the CI system. These tests are not build-time tests, but are used to run end-to-end tests of the packaged software. The autopkgtest scripts often include running the upstream tests, but additional tests are generally added; "you have a lot of freedom here" to add dependencies needed to test the software in various ways.

While autopkgtest is the mechanism used, debci is the service that runs the tests continuously, the results of which can be seen at ci.debian.net. It runs these tests "on a long list of architectures" for each change, though not all of the architectures that the distribution supports. The main artifact that it produces is reports of the tests, which can be used to determine whether the package should migrate from unstable to testing.

A given package will be tested, but there is more to it than that; its dependencies are also being tested, as are the packages which either depend on it or have tests that do. The intent is to find regressions where the previous version of the package was passing, but it no longer does; so, when tests fail, the previous version is tested to see if it also fails. So if package A gets uploaded to unstable, debci will look at which packages depend on it and find package B, for example; it will then run the tests for B using both the old and new versions of A and compare the results. That can all be seen on tracker.debian.org on a per-package basis, such as for the glibc package.

He gave two examples of where this process finds bugs that may have gone unnoticed otherwise. A 2021 test failure for the aeskeyfind utility, which is a forensic tool to find AES keys in memory, silently failed because it was relying on undefined behavior that changed due to a different GCC version. Since aeskeyfind is unmaintained, other distributions may also have the problem, though Henrique has tried to get the word out on it.

The other was a failure of UDPTunnel test due to a change in the Nmap port scanner. The problem was a hidden regression in Nmap that was detected by autopkgtest and debci, which resulted in an Nmap bug report and subsequent fix.

Salsa CI is one of his favorite tools; it is based on the Debian GitLab instance, Salsa, and helps "make sure our packages are all nice and stable". The Salsa CI team provides recipes for tests that run on individual commits for packages. He showed a Salsa CI page for curl, which lists a bunch of different tests that were run, including build tests, autopkgtest, a test for possibly missing build flags, such as for hardening, a build reproducibility test, and more. There were a few other tools he briefly mentioned, including one to ensure there are no multi-arch problems and Janitor, which will proactively scan source repositories and send merge requests with suggested improvements.

An audience member asked about what other distributions do with regard to QA. Henrique said that he knew a bit about others, including Fedora, which has some equivalent systems and processes, but thought that Debian is "the best one doing this today". With that, the session ran out of time. Overall, he provided a nice whirlwind tour of Debian development and maintenance in his presentation—and helped show the recipe for the sauce.

[I would like to thank the Linux Foundation, LWN's travel sponsor, for its assistance in visiting Busan for DebConf24.]


Index entries for this article
ConferenceDebConf/2024


to post comments

glitch

Posted Oct 14, 2024 16:45 UTC (Mon) by detiste (subscriber, #96117) [Link] (5 responses)

> The non-official architectures only get packages built for stable, testing, and experimental.
Also unstable, a few hours/minutes later

glitch

Posted Oct 15, 2024 14:26 UTC (Tue) by jake (editor, #205) [Link] (4 responses)

It would seem that either I misheard or Samuel misspoke, but that list should be *un*stable, testing, and experimental. I have put a correction into the article.

jake

glitch

Posted Oct 15, 2024 17:09 UTC (Tue) by sthibaul (✭ supporter ✭, #54477) [Link] (2 responses)

non-release archs don't have testing either, it's just unstable and experimental

glitch

Posted Oct 15, 2024 17:17 UTC (Tue) by sthibaul (✭ supporter ✭, #54477) [Link]

see http://deb.debian.org/debian-ports/dists/

Additionally, "unreleased" is specific to non-release archs where arch-specific packages and temporary fixes can be uploaded

glitch

Posted Oct 15, 2024 21:36 UTC (Tue) by SamuelOPH (subscriber, #107804) [Link]

That's on me, for some reason I thought testing was also covered by non-release archs, I have no idea why :(

glitch

Posted Oct 16, 2024 13:12 UTC (Wed) by glaubitz (subscriber, #96452) [Link]

> It would seem that either I misheard or Samuel misspoke, but that list should be *un*stable, testing, and experimental. I have put a correction into the article.

It's only unstable and experimental, there is no testing either which is due to the lack of a Britney instance in Debian Ports.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 14, 2024 19:50 UTC (Mon) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link] (25 responses)

One of the reasons why Tumbleweed is IMHO the best rolling distro (and yes, I work for SUSE, so I may be biased) is before every snapshot is released, it goes through extensive testing with openQA (https://openqa.opensuse.org/). And as a Python maintainer, I know that comparing to some other distros I won’t name we try to run all possible test suites on all python-* packages, and we file zillion of bugs (and sometime patches) all the time.

And yes, we have similar experience to Debian: by running tests on various platforms and versions (including various IBM and ARM hardware), we constantly discover many platform-related issues, which are hidden by your run-of-the-mill free CIs like GitHub Actions running only one version of Ubuntu on x86_64. And for example, yes, Big Endian/Little Endian difference is still the issue after all these years (and yes, there is still Big Endian hardware around).

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 3:43 UTC (Tue) by azumanga (subscriber, #90158) [Link] (12 responses)

I'm interested, what is the value in people spending time on big-endian? I'm not saying no-one should do it, I'm genuinely interested in why people invest time in it.

Yes, old hardware exists, but to be honest as an open-source developer, at this point I'm not sure it's worth my time, unless someone is willing to pay me to fix it (and no-one is).

Time is limited, and while some people enjoy maintaining their big-endian CPU systems (and, they can enjoy that!), is it really worth dev's limited time to file bugs against hardware they mostly do not, and will never, have access to? How many people are actually installing, and using, random packages on big-endian systems, compared to the amount of work spent on testing and maintaining?

Last time I got a big-endian bug reported by Debian, I spent half a day trying to get a big-endian debian running in qemu with working networking, and after following 3 different out-of-date and broken guides, gave up. Looking around the open-suse wiki, and some googling, I couldn't find any simple advice for getting big-endian open-suse working easily either.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 5:17 UTC (Tue) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link] (10 responses)

> I'm interested, what is the value in people spending time on big-endian?

Well, all these bugs are clearly bugs. Some developers care about those.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 5:24 UTC (Tue) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link] (8 responses)

And of course nobody cares whether their software runs on one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Z or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Power_Systems

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 6:39 UTC (Tue) by azumanga (subscriber, #90158) [Link] (7 responses)

IBM started transitioning their recommended Linux on Power from big-endian to little-endian back in 2015, many people run power on little-endian nowadays.

https://www.ibm.com/support/pages/just-faqs-about-little-...

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 6:41 UTC (Tue) by azumanga (subscriber, #90158) [Link]

Sorry, can't edit post, and this is a better, and much more up to date link:

https://developer.ibm.com/articles/l-power-little-endian-...

Where they say "However, customers running big endian distributions would be wise to begin planning their transitions to little endian distributions as their applications become available and time permits."

openSUSE

Posted Oct 16, 2024 13:14 UTC (Wed) by glaubitz (subscriber, #96452) [Link] (5 responses)

> IBM started transitioning their recommended Linux on Power from big-endian to little-endian back in 2015, many people run power on little-endian nowadays.

AIX is still big-endian and so is IBM zSeries.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 18, 2024 17:56 UTC (Fri) by anton (subscriber, #25547) [Link] (4 responses)

Which leads back to the question of why an upstream developer should care. Even in the Debian popularity contest, the number of big-endian systems seems to be 134, about 0.05% of the counted population (about 245000 systems):
hppa             : 8
m68k             : 2
mips             : 5
powerpc          : 50
ppc64            : 37
s390x            : 10
sparc            : 2
sparc64          : 22

And, of course, how to test. I have not yet had access to an s390x system. At least there is one AIX system on cfarm, as well as a number of SPARCs and (big-endian) Linux-ppc64 systems (in addition to Linux-ppc64le systems), and a big-endian MIPS64 running at the moment.

Sure, I take pride in my free software running on a wide range of hardware (especially when I compare it with the commercial competition), but I can fully understand anyone who thinks that the benefits are not worth the effort. If IBM (the only remaining company providing non-eoled big-endian hardware) wants us to port to big-endian, they need to provide more opportunities for testing on such hardware.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 18, 2024 19:38 UTC (Fri) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link] (1 responses)

> Which leads back to the question of why an upstream developer should care. Even in the Debian popularity contest, the number of big-endian systems seems to be 134, about 0.05% of the counted population (about 245000 systems):

Because counting the number of systems is actually a terrible metric?

An S390x may be just one system, but (and I don't really remember the details) some ISP many moons ago bought - iirc - just ONE mainframe to host some 15,000 customer VMs.

Likewise, in terms of system cost, I don't know how the cost of an S390x compares against a decent single-developer PC, but I'm sure they punch well above their weight in installed value, too.

Plus, as I seem to recall others saying, making sure your code is endian-clean seems to be a good tactic for finding genuine bugs ...

Cheers,
Wol

openSUSE

Posted Oct 19, 2024 6:50 UTC (Sat) by anton (subscriber, #25547) [Link]

An S390x may be just one system, but (and I don't really remember the details) some ISP many moons ago bought - iirc - just ONE mainframe to host some 15,000 customer VMs.

Likewise, in terms of system cost, I don't know how the cost of an S390x compares against a decent single-developer PC, but I'm sure they punch well above their weight in installed value, too.

So there is commercial interest in s390x. If IBM, the host ISP or the customers of that ISP actually really want the upstreams to fix problems with portability to s390x, they can pay the upstreams to do it. Or they can do it themselves, and send patches to the upstreams. But what happens is that nobody even bothers to put an s390x machine on cfarm (which might induce some upstreams to do it for free). And sorry, some well-hidden (I had never read about it before) IBM community cloud that requires jumping through extra hoops puts extra hurdles in the way; I don't know if I will find the time to cross them, probably not.
making sure your code is endian-clean seems to be a good tactic for finding genuine bugs
Not in my experience, and I don't see a reason why it should be.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 18, 2024 20:47 UTC (Fri) by ceplm (subscriber, #41334) [Link]

I have huge respect for Debian, but O am afraid that large enterpise-only systems are still run mostly by enterprise distributions like RHEL or SLES.

Caring about big-endian only bugs

Posted Oct 19, 2024 10:57 UTC (Sat) by farnz (subscriber, #17727) [Link]

I care about big-endian only bugs for two reasons:

  1. The fixes for some big-endian bugs turn out to improve codegen on little-endian platforms; by changing things so that I'm being explicit about the relationship between bytes and bigger data structures, I allow the optimizer to spot more opportunities to do a better job.
  2. Some big-endian-only bugs turn out to be a case of "winning the UB lottery", where the code is IFNDR or contains UB, and it's just good luck that compilers for little-endian machines have thus far interpreted it the way I want them to.

It is rare, in my experience, for a big-endian bug to not fall into one of those two categories; and the UB lottery ones are especially useful, since my experience is that if I'm consistently winning the UB lottery with a given compiler version on little-endian platforms, I'll consistently lose it on big-endian platforms, whereas when a compiler upgrade results in me sometimes losing and sometimes winning (e.g. changing optimization level, putting in state dumps via printf can cause the compiler to be unable to exploit the UB). And it's much easier to debug something that's consistently failing, even as I mutate the code to narrow down where the bug is, than to debug something where any change can be enough to stop me losing the UB lottery.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 9:10 UTC (Tue) by dottedmag (subscriber, #18590) [Link]

If a developer of some piece of software declares that it is only designed to run on little-endian machines then failure to run on big-endian is not a bug.

Sadly, not many developers say upfront what platforms and toolchains they are targeting, so they have to be asked, like the following: https://github.com/tink-crypto/tink-go/issues/19

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 10:10 UTC (Tue) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

Actualy, most non x86_64 new hardware support both big-endian and little-endian mode,
it is just that the OS standardized on little endian.
But there use to be both big-endian and little-endian Debian port for arm
(armel, armeb), mips (mips,mipsel), powerpc64 (powerpc64, powerpc64el)

So really this not an hardware problem.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 4:11 UTC (Tue) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link] (6 responses)

> and yes, there is still Big Endian hardware around

I'd love to play with modern-ish BE hardware. But I think only SPARC still is holding out? Even the IBM has surrendered: https://developer.ibm.com/articles/l-power-little-endian-...

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 7:31 UTC (Tue) by azumanga (subscriber, #90158) [Link] (2 responses)

The end of SPARC has already been announced, it will come in 2029, and they recommend moving to ARM before then:

https://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/servers...

So with Power going LE and SPARC going away, I think there is no consumer big-endian hardware left. I think in the future the only remaining big-endian CPU at this point is the IBM Z series, which most of us will have no sensible way to access.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 17:27 UTC (Tue) by hmh (subscriber, #3838) [Link]

The hundreds of millions of 32-bit BE MIPS hardware currently on operation might or might not be within your "consumer hardware" filter... They will be around for a decade, yet. And a decent fraction of them run Linux, so they made it to *my* filter of consumer devices :-)

You'd usually run Openwrt or Yocto on them, not Debian. We (Debian) don't do very well on small RAM, small FLASH devices like the 2-core 4-thread BE MIPS inside my network router, where you go very out of your way to never write to the filesystem needlessly, for example.

But with my upstream hat on? I most definitely must support 32/64 bit and BE/LE hardware, and it is neither difficult nor troublesome to be endian-clean. 32/64 can be a lot harder. I guess this does not matter for high-end applications like most web browsers, or LLMS or some classes of games, though. But if it would run well on a smaller ARM32 device, by being endian-clean it will also run on MIPS devices.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 16, 2024 13:18 UTC (Wed) by glaubitz (subscriber, #96452) [Link]

> The end of SPARC has already been announced, it will come in 2029, and they recommend moving to ARM before then:

Solaris on SPARC is support at least until 2034. Plus, there is also SPARC Leon which is actively developed and maintained.

> So with Power going LE and SPARC going away, I think there is no consumer big-endian hardware left.

POWER has always bi-endian and AIX is actually still defaulting to big-endian on POWER.

> I think in the future the only remaining big-endian CPU at this point is the IBM Z series, which most of us will have no sensible way to access.

s390x can be emulated by QEMU, so it's easy to get access to big-endian Linux. Plus, there are cloud-based s390x solutions which community members can use.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 7:52 UTC (Tue) by pm215 (subscriber, #98099) [Link] (1 responses)

If you think s390x counts as modern, you can play with that via IBM's "Community Cloud" setup at https://community.ibm.com/zsystems/l1cc/ -- there's a 120 day trial VM that anybody can create (running Red Hat, SUSE or Ubuntu), and if you're an open source project you can apply for a more permanent setup. (QEMU uses this both for testing our s390 specific code and as the bigendian config in our CI.)

openSUSE

Posted Oct 16, 2024 0:00 UTC (Wed) by azumanga (subscriber, #90158) [Link]

Thanks, I'll try that out!

openSUSE

Posted Oct 16, 2024 13:16 UTC (Wed) by glaubitz (subscriber, #96452) [Link]

IBM zSeries is still big-endian and so is AIX.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 19:44 UTC (Tue) by q3cpma (subscriber, #120859) [Link] (3 responses)

How does it compare to Gentoo that can have multiple versions of any package in their repo (keeping stable truly stable and letting users upgrade individual packages to unstable) and even multiple installed (SLOTs, for libraries that often break ABI)?

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 21:46 UTC (Tue) by SamuelOPH (subscriber, #107804) [Link] (2 responses)

> How does it compare to Gentoo that can have multiple versions of any package in their repo (keeping stable truly stable and letting users upgrade individual packages to unstable) and even multiple installed (SLOTs, for libraries that often break ABI)?

I wish I had dedicated some time to pointing out some things that other distros are good at.

This doesn't exactly answer your question but I wanted to say that Gentoo is very good at identifying build regressions caused by newer gcc/glibc, as they often seems to be the first compiling something with that new toolchain. For context, Debian doesn't automatically rebuilds everything on any new version of gcc/glibc, whereas Gentoo folks are constantly rebuilding their packages.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 16, 2024 13:43 UTC (Wed) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link] (1 responses)

:ramble while the coffee kicks in:
This is an example where having different systems with different organizing principals but sharing the same software application ecosystem can provide testing benefit, although I'm generally skeptical the extra work and complexity of trying to make everything work on every combination of incompatibly organized system is always worth it, even if you are technically finding bugs, the value of fixing some of those bugs isn't worth burning maintainers out, and its why I like the idea of flatpak where you can name and test an entire runtime as a single target ABI, reducing the combinations allowing one to make simplifying assumptions and batching bug reports to reduce developer context switching. Traditional distros obviously try to do this across the whole repo, but that's a _lot_ of software to try and shoehorn into a single runtime that then moves in lockstep across _all_ packages, having different versions of the ABI able to safely co-exist allows edge leaf applications to pick the pace of maintenance that best fits their developer resources.

openSUSE

Posted Oct 17, 2024 15:44 UTC (Thu) by nim-nim (subscriber, #34454) [Link]

Well there is no magic recipe.

If people were able to coordinate better they’d all test the same runtime. But, since the bugs are not created by the testing, that would mean this runtime would concentrate all the problems and be quite difficult to integrate.

Plus when all people test the same thing it is real easy to miss some problems, till they become too big to ignore (and at this point they also become quite expensive to fix).

openSUSE

Posted Oct 15, 2024 21:56 UTC (Tue) by SamuelOPH (subscriber, #107804) [Link]

> we try to run all possible test suites on all python-* packages

That sounds like the same we do for debci, tests are run against all packages that either depends on it or has a test that depends on it. Does SUSE also have an equivalent to a migration reference (to identify false positives)?

Although distros have different tools and frameworks for integration tests, with some duplicated effort, the most important thing at the end of the day is that upstream gets bug reports and patches, that way all distros benefit from it.

small correction regarding proposed-updates

Posted Oct 15, 2024 21:38 UTC (Tue) by SamuelOPH (subscriber, #107804) [Link]

"the normal requirement is that packages spend a week in proposed-updates
before moving to stable. Periodically, the release team will pause migrations
from proposed-updates to stable in order to create a point release."

I was probably not very clear, but what the release team
will pause is actually the introduction of new packages to proposed-updates,
not the migration itself. The migration from proposed-updates to stable only
happens when a point release is created, it's not constantly running.

The part about packages spending baking time in proposed-updates is supposed to
mean that it's at least 1 week, but it could be whenever time it's pending for
the next stable point release, I hope that makes sense.

honorable mention of piuparts

Posted Oct 15, 2024 21:41 UTC (Tue) by SamuelOPH (subscriber, #107804) [Link] (1 responses)

I forgot to explain piuparts when talking about salsa-ci, piuparts is the service which tests "that .deb packages can be installed, upgraded, and removed without problems."

It's run as its own service and it's also one of the salsa-ci jobs.

For more information, see https://piuparts.debian.org/

honorable mention of piuparts

Posted Oct 15, 2024 23:31 UTC (Tue) by sthibaul (✭ supporter ✭, #54477) [Link]

Piuparts is really a great tool. I wouldn't test such install / upgrade myself otherwise.

Relevance of distributions for container images

Posted Oct 17, 2024 7:56 UTC (Thu) by MKesper (subscriber, #38539) [Link]

I think it should be promoted much more offensively that all the hard work Debian (and other distributions) put into integrating all those puzzles are the base for all those shiny "cloud native" container images.
Especially the hunt for fixing of CVEs is never-ending work.


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